Go Coach Yourself!

Are You Listening, No Really Listening? - Meaningful Conversations Series (3/5)

• Ryan Reichert-Estes, CPCC and Vic Smith, CPCC • Season 1 • Episode 16

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In this episode of 'Go Coach Yourself,' hosts Vic and Ryan delve into the critical skill of listening as part of their ongoing meaningful conversation series. They emphasize the importance of truly listening rather than merely hearing to create deeper connections.  The episode is peppered with personal anecdotes, as they provide tips for effective listening, encouraging listeners to embrace global listening, practice looping, and acknowledge good listening when it's demonstrated. The episode concludes with a reminder that listening goes beyond maintaining eye contact and requires truly understanding the speaker.

References:
Charles Duhigg - How to Have More Meaningful Conversations
Charles Duhigg - Tools
Harvard Business Review - How to Be a Supercommunicator at Work
Charles Duhigg's work

Other Episodes:
Meaningful Conversations Series - Intro 1/5
The Art of Asking Great Questions - 2/5

Hosts:

Ryan Reichert-Estes, StackRise Coaching | LinkedIn | Insta: @stackrisecoaching

Vic Smith, WhistleSmith.co | LinkedIn | Insta: @vic_bk

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Hey Ryan, since starting this podcast, do you find yourself constantly thinking about things with a podcast lens now?

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

podcast lens. Oh, do you mean like, you know, I see something and I think that would be a great podcast episode. or I'm going to like have to save something or squirrel it away for the next topic we talk about.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I've got one for today's episode. When my best friend Katie is listening hard, and she wants me to know, that she's heard me, she says, I see what you're saying.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Okay. And so what is the episode about?

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Let's find out!

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Great. Welcome to another episode of Go Coach Yourself, a podcast to help you get unfucked and build the incredible life you deserve. We're Vic and Ryan, two certified coaches, trying to change the world one conversation at a time. So seriously though, what are we talking about today?

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Today, we're continuing our meaningful conversation series. It's a five part series, starting with the power of meaningful conversations, which is already available. This tackles like the overview of what a meaningful conversation is and why we should be having them. Episode two, how to ask really great questions to deepen connection was released last week. And this episode, episode three. How to listen, no really listen, is what we're focused on today? and then next week you can hear episode four, being present with an open heart and open mind. And then the week after we close out with episode five, the MC Frame, which is a framework that'll help you prep for conversations and give you pointers on how to shape it when you're in it.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

I love this series. Like I'm super excited about all of these episodes.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Oh, me too.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

So let's, uh, let's start this one off on listening with the, Uh, Charles Duhigg work and this concept of super communicators. We talked about this in the Power of Meaningful Conversations, our first episode. And what he says is that we need to understand that whenever we get into a conversation, there are usually one of three reasons why. The first is practical, so like, what is this really about? The second is emotional, focused on how do we feel. And the third is social, who are we

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Uh, yeah, here's the thing that resonated for me. If you don't know what kind of conversation you're having, connecting with the other person or people, it's going to be really hard.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Hmm.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

And I think this can happen often when we come to the conversation prepped in different ways. So I think I'm coming to have a social conversation and you're coming to have an emotional conversation. And I think that Super communicators know the importance of recognizing And then matching each kind of conversation. You know, it's like how to hear the complex emotions, the subtle negotiations and the hidden beliefs that call us so much of what we say and how we listen. And I just want to point out here that Charles do hear Has a book called Super Communicators, which we've talked about before, as well as several other books, uh, but on his website, there's some tools that you can download that speak directly about how to spot And navigate these three types of conversations and how to approach them. So we'll link to that in the show notes.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

That's great. and Yeah, you, when you say that, it makes me think like how many disputes or disagreements are caused by the fact that we've just shown up for a different conversation than the other person.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Yes.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

I'm, uh, I'm really excited to, to tackle listening today because I, I really do truly believe that being heard can be life changing,

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Mm.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

a hundred percent. Thank you.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Totally, Totally,

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

So, and I know as coaches, we often see this in our coach client relationships, you know, just that idea of being listened to, being about to speak, and having someone just listen is so powerful. And it's so much of what we do as we explore those relationships with our clients. Yeah, I have had several clients

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

who get quite emotional in the first few sessions. And when we dig into why that is, it's usually because they feel really hurt and haven't experienced that enough to be comfortable with it. So it brings up this emotion.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

yeah, I like, I want that for everyone.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Yes. yeah,

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

find that as well. Um, it's, it can be a bit jarring at first and you have to get used to it, but, um, it's almost like something is released in a way. Like when you realize that the person you're with that is listening is just there to hear you. It's, it's really amazing. Uh, one of the things that I think is important here is in listening is, you know, to actually listen though. And I know that we've all been taught like how, how we listen. We talk about active listening, but I mean, really listen, stop what you're doing. Stop the internal voices and narrative that's going on for you. Stop the external noise that is happening and just really, really listen. This can honestly be one of the hardest things too. Because if we can't do it, we really can't tune into what the other person is trying to tell us. and I don't mean just, like, to tell us with their mouths. I mean, like, all the different ways that somebody is speaking to us or talking. Uh, you know, they're using the words that they're saying, but how are they using their bodies? What are their eyes telling us? Their tone? And if you're not really listening, you're only going to pick up about 50 percent at best of what that person is actually trying to say.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

This is so true and it makes me think about the Stephen Covey thing where he says, you know, you should be listening to understand, not listening with the intent to reply. And often we're listening to someone and they say something that resonates with us, like we've got a shared experience or the same thing happened to us. we went to the same vacation destination. We know that same person and we have our own story. Um, You know, we hear that thing and immediately we think of that story. And then we're just waiting for that person to finish, to, to put our point across, to tell our story or our experience. And in that moment, guess what? We've stopped listening. Right. Now this conversation has its place, right? I'm not saying, you know, this is not how you listen. This isn't every single conversation, but when you have a meaningful conversation. That person's trying to connect. They're trying to be heard and it's not about us. It's about them.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Yeah, for sure. And I totally agree, like, that. can be really hard to think of that thing and feel that excitement. But I think as we practice, we can start realizing, when to save it for. Because ultimately, when someone's sharing their story, Bearing their souls to us looking for that connection. Like you said, it can be really frustrating to then feel like, okay, like that other person wasn't really, really hearing me. So, as we continue, let's talk a little bit about, as listeners, how we can avoid doing that

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

yeah, let's do that. Let's, let's talk about how we can avoid this. Cause I think that's the unlock.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

So, the Coactive Training Institute, or CTI, uh, where we've trained to be coaches and they certify coaches all around the world, they have a really great model for this. Um, so their view is that when you're in coach mode, there are three different levels of listening. So I'll go through those really quickly here. First level, level one listening, is about internal listening. So this is where our attention is focused on our own thoughts, you know, the feelings we have, the interpretations we're making of what the person is telling us, And this is like what you said about Stephen Covey. It's that listening with the intent of responding. Level two listening then is, intensely listening to others. And so this is where your listening is really pointed. Your attention is fully on like a laser to the person you are listening to. You're fully focused on them. Finally, level three listening is called global listening. This is a focus instead where you're actually encompassing everything around you, you know, including your senses, your intuition, the full environment and atmosphere around the conversation that you're

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Yeah, I love this. And that global listening. Took me a little while to get to grips with it. Cause I feel like it's almost counter intuitive. And for a while, it felt like, you're not focusing solely on the clients, but you're looking around as well, and then I realized it's about the whole entirety of the conversation.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Yeah, I definitely struggled with this one too, because it, it, did, it felt like, wait a second, you've now just told me to listen to everything. Uh, which feels like I'm not putting my attention on the other person. and I totally agree with you. It's, it's about seeing almost that bigger picture. And when it started to make sense to me, was thinking about, okay, you know, I've noticed something in the background. And I'm curious if that actually has. some weird connection to what the client is maybe sharing with me. And so I'll notice it and use intuition to like put it in there and then just check, you know, is it meaningful for the client? And if not, we just move forward and keep going. Um, but it is, it is kind of tough to like move from one level to another and really easy to slip back. So it's not like you get to level three and you're always at level three. Um, so I think it's important to, to know that it's a sliding scale at times for sure.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Yeah, I agree. It's like this constant, focus on listening at the global level. Mm hmm. And noticing when you move to level 2 or level 1 And then bringing yourself back.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

yes, yes, it's that, that right there, and I think it's important to call out like the noticing And then reacting to, to come back. And so it's okay to like notice, but then always repeating, like come back. Um, yep.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Something else I want to talk about here is looping. And this is something that Charles Duhigg talks about. It's where you really listen to the other person. And show them that you've heard them. And then check that you've got it right. So there's three steps. the first step is you ask a question. The second is you repeat back what you heard in your own words. And then the third step is you ask if you got it right. And the great thing about this is that it lets the other person know A. You're interested enough to ask a question. And B. You care enough to want to hear what they've got to say. Thanks. And then C, you understand what they say and meant in the response that they gave you. And now, I want to be super clear, this isn't, Oh, it sounds like you're struggling with X and you need to do Y. That's summarizing and moving to, action.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Um.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

That's not looping. Looping is, I heard you say X and you're struggling with it because of Y. Did I get that right? There's a difference there between this is what I think you just said and what I think you should do. and this is what I think you're struggling with And this is why I heard you're struggling with it. and did I get that right? And I love this technique because you've got to listen really hard to be able to do it well.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Yeah, yeah and I mean it takes some time as well if you're listening, you might need a minute to think about, okay, like, what did I just hear? And it's okay for that to happen. And so I think what we're saying here, though, is in summarizing, there is some listening with an intent to reply. But it's, it's intentional. Hmm. So,, let's continue by building on this with what Duhigg says about this idea of social mimicry. So, I think we probably all have an experience of this and it's one of the strongest human impulses to try to copy or want to copy someone. So, you know, if someone else starts asking a question and looping in the way that you described it, Other people are going to be more likely to listen closely, ask questions, and loop in return. And that's ultimately just going to make the conversation better for everyone.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Oh, just changing the world. One conversation at a time.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Yep, that's right, that's right. As I mentioned, this, makes the conversation better for everyone. And additionally, this idea of social mimicry is the thing we do when we mirror someone's body language. when we mimic what someone's doing, or for instance, how they're standing, like they might have their arms crossed, or they might be you know, looking kind of relaxed. What are they doing with their hands? It's a clear signal that we're in with this other person. And our brains are actually synced up when we're mirroring them. It's like this unspoken signal, uh, that we're, that we're connected and listening. And I honestly, I just really quickly have a amusing little thing there. Like, I actually have to sometimes be really careful with this. I noticed when I used to work in the wine business, I would have like customers who came in that were clearly from Canada cause they had slight Canadian accents and I would accidentally start to find myself like using words and things, phrases to like connect with them because I wanted to create connection and I'm like, crap, I now I'm using a Canadian accent, but I have to like not do that.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

No way. So you'd be like, this is a good wine, eh?

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Yeah, you know, it's it's that mimic, but it is, it's just that it's that mimicry because you want you want to form that connection with other people.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Yeah. Now to be clear here, this is not in a narcissistic way. So when it's for narcissistic reasons, it's all wrong

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Mm

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

that's not what we're talking about here.. One of the things that interests me is when this shows up in a work environment, this idea of listening and really listening and creating space to be heard. I think the power that it can have in getting everyone's viewpoint out and understanding where everyone's coming from, it helps you like reach a consensus quicker. It improves collaboration. It sparks innovation. It enhances performance for new people to the organization or more junior team members. It's going to hugely impact their engagements and teach them that it's Perfectly acceptable and expected that their voices in the room and that they should anticipate being heard. I've worked in organizations where the culture makes it easier to collaborate in this way, where leaders like really want to hear and they seek to understand what's happening. To understand how people feel about it and then what they recommend, not the leader. But what the employee or the team member recommends, I think when you're in a culture like this, it's a game changer. It's a total game changer.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Yeah, I totally agree. And I mean, I know, I know, that the two of us have actually been through a lot of work where, you know, we're, we've created things that have been like, okay, leaders, it's time to time to really start asking questions. about how people feel and about how people are getting through things. I just, I really agree with you though. It's like super important to, uh, build this in to, just that regular way of operating and when it's not there and then it's just artificially injected, you can tell, it's almost worse in some way, because then it also signals of like, okay, this isn't what this person really cares about, and they're just doing this because they think that they need to. So, there's practice that's required.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Yeah, I think it's really interesting I remember working for an organization and doing some work on engagement. And, you know, engagement is all about when you do an engagement survey, it's about listening to your employees. And I remember the tension in what do you do with those results?

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Mm,

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

How do you help a leader navigate a conversation with their team where they ask questions? The team is telling them how they feel. How do you help that leader truly listen? To what they've been told and want to know more. Like, I think that, you know, for me, that's the unlock with organizations when they can do that. I think that's the key piece.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

For sure. For sure. And then on the flip of it, like when you're an employee receiving this, I think it's also really important and we should as As individual contributors, uh, you know, middle managers, even if you've got people or leaders that are modeling this and they're doing it in a way that feels good for you, sharing it, telling people when they're doing it right. you know, if you feel heard, truly, truly heard. Make sure to tell somebody else that they've done that And I, you know, I say that. as an upward thing, but it can actually be peer to peer as well. Something as simple as saying, Hey, thank you for really listening.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

There's such power in that as well from a positive reinforcement.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

So Vic, as we keep talking about this, I'm curious, do you have any examples of how this shows up? Mhm.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Do you know, as I was prepping for this episode I kept thinking about the TV show, The Bear, and anybody who has watched The Bear, there's a bit of a spoiler here, but not a, not a huge amount, but there's not a huge amount of listening that goes on in that show. There's a lot of shouting. There's a lot of. You know, kind of direction, but there's, there's not a huge amount of listening. And in season three, there's an episode called napkins. And it's one of those going back in time episodes. I kind of love this, by the way, where you get someone's origin story, you know, and you kind of get to see where they, where they came from. And it follows one of the characters, Tina, and her journey to getting her job in the kitchen. And, it follows her through a pretty bad time where she's feeling dejected, she's feeling down and it culminates in this moment where,, she just is, she's distraught, and she happens to find The restaurant, and she goes in and she buys one of the sandwiches, um, and she goes through to the back and she sits down and, you know, Mikey's in there, he's, you know, him and Richie are having this like shouting argument, which is what they do there, and she's just quietly crying at the table and Mikey sees this and he goes over and he's like, and what happens next is probably 10 minutes of the most meaningful conversation that I've seen on TV in a long time. And the reason why is that it's a beautiful display of really great questions, which we cover in the, previous episode, but It's also just bags of space for listening. It's bags and bags of space for just, really, he wants to hear what she's saying. And she wants to hear what he's saying. And this connection that they have is so deep in such a short space of time. There's no relationship here before, they've never met each other. And yet this conversation is so meaningful and the listening is so hard that they create this connection that actually is the foundation for her journey, and his journey together,, throughout,, the next kind of number of years. The reason why I keep coming back to and thinking about that is that when I was watching it, I was like, There's a demonstration here that you don't have to have a relationship, a preexisting relationship to have a meaningful conversation and to want to listen to somebody and truly hear them. So that's like one example of where I've seen that come to life that I'd share. And then the other is on a personal level, I think I get my super communicator traits from my dad. And yeah, I'm sat here and I'm tootin my own horn, talking about my superpowers, because I do honestly believe that one of my superpowers is communication. And that when I put that alongside the expertise that I bring to the table, you know, in leader and manager development, I think that's what makes me so successful. And in some instances it makes me unstoppable because, I can bring these two things together. It makes me think about, as a young adult, like forging my way in the world, you know, I'd come across dilemmas. I'd come across places where I didn't know what to do next or where maybe I did know what to do next, but I didn't want to do it. And you know, I'd, I would always go to my dad For For these types of conversations because he had this, you know, he had an upbringing that was unique. Probably not so much at the time. It wasn't the upbringing I had. Um, he had just real life experience., his life had given him, you know, lots of hardships, lots of spaces where opportunities were quite small and slim and he had made the most of them., He would always approach a conversation where he wanted to know everything. Like all the details, he wanted to know how I felt. He wanted to know what I was thinking about it. He wanted to know what the options were I'd already considered. And only after all of that, and after draining all of those things, would he then offer an opinion or ask if I wanted his opinion. And You know what that taught me is, and you could argue here and say he was coaching even in those moments, right? Like that was, that was kind of coaching. And without a doubt, he always had a solution and it may not have been better than mine. It may have been the same as mine, but he, you know, he would always have an answer for how he would approach it. But that wasn't his starting point. Like his starting point was to help me understand. what the experience was and process it and then come up with the answer myself. And I think that shaped how I listen to others. I think that shapes how I show up as a coach because in those formative moments for me, I really felt listened to and understood the power of that in showing up as a better human being.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Those are both really beautiful examples. And I love, I love, yeah, that idea that you don't, you don't need to know someone deeply to have a conversation with them. And to help them feel listened to. Uh, I mean, but the story with your dad, like, wow. Like. Talk about the power of like just creating space. Because sometimes when we are listening to others and really, really listening to them, it's actually giving them, both that gift of being heard, but then also the gift of processing something and thinking about it differently for themselves. And so like the power that, he created for you in that space is just so. cool.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Yeah. Yeah.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Nice. Thank you, for sharing.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

You're welcome. You're welcome. What about you? How does this show up for you?

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Yeah, so, I mean, there have been, there have been, like, I think you said,, leaders and others, uh, in my life that, uh, it's, I mean, you're one of these people,, I never, I never leave an experience talking with you. We talked about Phil, a friend of ours a few episodes ago, he's one of those people, you just know,, you're going to be heard. Um, but I, I think building on that idea of like, you don't need to know someone., I, I think this has actually been the gift of both working with support people the way that I think of them,, like coaches or therapists in my life so far. And one that's really, really clear for me is last fall, I went through some depression and was like really struggling with it. And at the time I wasn't talking to anybody, So I realized, okay, that's one of the things that I needed to do. I needed to get help to talk with somebody and to like have a different perspective. And I remember first talking with my, with that new therapist at that point and coming in feeling like all up in arms almost of like, this is going to actually In some ways help, but in other ways, like I just, I can't have somebody say, Hey, you need to like, go practice meditation. And in that first conversation, I told her that I said, Hey, like, look, I, I'm at this place and I don't know what I need right now, but I do know that if someone tells me to practice mindfulness in this moment, and then she actually like interjected and said, you're going to throat punch them. Um, and it was just like, you know, that, that talk about a great sense of global listening. Cause it's like, she, she just was right there and clearly knew, okay, this is, this is a thing that, is really going to frustrate me. And. It was one of those moments where I'm like, Oh my God, yeah, yeah, you completely have understood how I've come to this moment and it's so, uh, so cool even now to think back at that is like, okay, and that was one of those places where I'm like, that was immediate trust building that she created because I'm like, you get me. You're, you're here to listen to me and this is gonna, this is actually gonna be so helpful. And so I think, I think I love like little moments like that where, you know, it just, you don't even necessarily expect it. Um, and then just to find it in that surprising way.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

so beautiful. And the power of that and so. You know, you, I imagine you got loads more out of the conversations that you had with that therapist, right? Like that wasn't your, your only takeaway. However,

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

When we are talking about listening

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

that moment pops up for you because she got you in that moment. She listened and gave you what you needed right in that moment. There's a power of listening, of just being heard. Magical. Okay. So let's round this up with some tips for our listeners on how to listen. No, really listen.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Tip 1. Listen globally. Go beyond listening with the intent to reply or just focusing on the words that the other person is saying. Dig deeper and make a connection.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

Tip two. Tip three. Practice looping. Remember, that's ask a question, listen intently, summarize what you've heard and then check if you got it right.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

Tip three, role model great listening and remember people will copy you.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

And then finally, tip four, call it out when someone does it well. If we want more of something, asking for it and positively reinforcing when it's given is a great way to get more of it.

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

So that's us and our take on how to listen. really really listen. We hope you found some value here, and we'll share it with others so that they can listen even better. We're Ryan and Vic, and thanks for joining us on Go Coach Yourself.

vic_2_08-16-2024_100625:

See you later alligator. That

ryan_1_08-16-2024_160244:

After a while, Crocodile. I just want to say here that I love that we just did this episode without talking about active listening and eye contact once. Ha ha Ha ha ha ha ha Listening is not just staring into somebody's eyes and making them uncomfortable. Ha ha ha ha ha

People on this episode

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Ryan Reichert-Estes, CPCC

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Vic Smith, CPCC

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