Go Coach Yourself!
Welcome to Go Coach Yourself!, a podcast to help you get unf*cked and build the incredible life you deserve. We’re Vic and Ryan, two certified coaches trying to change the world one conversation at a time.
In our respective practices, we’ve noticed common experiences or themes that come up again and again with clients. We started Go Coach Yourself to share our thoughts, experiences and tips with more people, giving you tools you can use to navigate your own way through any of the topics we cover. Through these examples and deep dives on coaching topics we hope you’ll gain a greater understanding of what working with a coach can involve. We believe everyone deserves to have a coach in their team, so whether you’re still exploring to find the right coach for you or you are ready to get started, we’re excited to give you an inside look at how two coaches see the world. We’re going to have a ton of fun along the way, and welcome you to join us on this journey!
About Vic Smith, CPCC
Go Coach Yourself!
The MC Frame - Meaningful Conversations Series (5/5)
In this episode of 'Go Coach Yourself!' hosts Vic and Ryan round out the Meaningful Conversations Series by exploring the essential strategies for planning and executing meaningful conversations using 'The MC Frame.' The framework comprises four critical steps: setup, preparation, the conversation, and follow-up. Each step is designed to help listeners have meaningful, intentional and impactful conversations. Using practical examples, the hosts illustrate how the framework can be applied to various personal and professional settings, enhancing emotional intelligence, trust, and relationship-building. Listeners can find the skills to accompany The MC Frame in the other four episodes in this series.
Resources:
The MC Frame
Other Episodes:
Meaningful Conversations Series - Intro 1/5
The Art of Asking Great Questions - 2/5
Are You Listening, No Really Listening? 3/5
Hosts:
Ryan Reichert-Estes, StackRise Coaching | LinkedIn | Insta: @stackrisecoaching
Vic Smith, WhistleSmith.co | LinkedIn | Insta: @vic_bk
Hey Ryan,
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Uh,
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:how do you approach trying a new recipe?
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:what do you mean?
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Well, do you read it through a few times, you check you've got the ingredients, get them all out and then start? Or do you just wing it? Yeah,
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Oh, yeah, I'm a planner, I'm definitely the first type. Like, I want to make sure I've got everything that I need before I go.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:me too. I am always surprised though by those people who say, oh I was cooking this thing and I realised I was out of this key ingredients and so that was a disaster. I'm always thinking, what? How did you not check before?
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Ha ha ha ha. Fail to plan, plan to fail. And now no one's getting any dinner. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Hmm. Welcome to another episode of go coach yourself a podcast to help you get unfucked and build the incredible life you deserve. We're Vic and Ryan, two certified coaches trying to change the world one conversation at a time. So Vic, what are we talking about today?
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Today we're talking through a framework to have a meaningful conversation. And so this is the last episode in our series on meaningful conversations. It's a five part series. And we started with episode one, the power of a meaningful conversation. We moved to episode two, which was how to ask really great questions to deepen connection. Episode three was how to listen, no, really listen. And then last week we released episode four, being present with an open heart and an open mind. And so we're closing out this week with episode five. The MC frame to help you prepare for conversations and give you some pointers on how to shape it.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Awesome. This series has been really fun. So, uh, all right. So where should we get started with this?
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:All right, so let's start here. Today's episode is centered around a tool that you'll find in our show notes and it's the meaningful conversations framework or as we call it the MC frame. And this is designed to help you prepare for those conversations that need just a little bit more thought.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:For those listening, when you talk about this, you do need to lean into your mic and lower your voice
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:The MC frame.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Ha, ha, ha. I think it's really good to mention here that not every conversation has to be meaningful, which we discussed in episode one. Some conversations can just be catch up conversations or update conversations. They don't require a whole lot of planning. You just need to show up, listen, ask questions and be present. So the things that we've talked about in the rest of this series. This frame though is for those moments where you do need a little bit more preparation.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Yeah, 100%. So, we have conversations all the time. With our partners, our friends, our family. If we're a manager, we have them with our teams, with our peers. However, sometimes the stakes are a little bit higher. There's some moments that you need to approach with more intention and preparation. You might need to discuss a sensitive topic, get vulnerable, deliver a key message, celebrate a recent win. You might wanna build a deeper connection a. Go deeper in a relationship, motivate your team through a tough moment, whatever the reason, if you're invested in the relationship and the outcome, if you're the instigator of that conversation, it's your responsibility to prepare, to give it thought so you can come to the conversation ready to dig in and to help you do this, we've got a framework.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Hmm. I love that, especially that piece about, you know, this is a, this is an investment in building your relationship with this person. That's
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Yes.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:So in case you've not already downloaded the tool, because I'm sure everybody rushed right to the show notes. Oh,
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Oh yeah, of course, the minute we mentioned it.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Yeah. Um, so, but imagine if you will, a page that's landscape and has four columns across it, each representing a different part of the conversation that you're going to plan for. So I'll describe each one. The first section is the setup. The second is the preparation. The third section is during the conversation and the fourth and final section is the follow up. So with that in mind, let's take each of these in turn. With step one, you're going to do the setup. And so this is arguably the most important part of the entire frame. Setting up the date, the time, the location, when and where is this conversation going to take place. Doing the job of signaling that this is going to be an important conversation. And if it's appropriate, setting up a calendar invite or sending some sort of reminder text the day before finally, and I can't stress this enough, tell the other person what the conversation is about and how they can get ready. If there's anything that they can do, I can't tell you how many times. I talk to people and hear that conversations have gone off the rails, and it's simply because this part was handled poorly or didn't happen at all. Ultimately, if this is an important conversation for you, give it the best odds. Make the time with the other person, Signal how important it is, and tell them what you want to talk about. It can be as simple as, Hey, do you have time on Friday evening to talk about X? Or it can be as informal as, Hey Vic, your performance review is coming up. I'm going to send you a calendar invite to do this on Friday. Here's what we'll be covering and some important things for you to prepare.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Yeah, gosh, this is so important. How many times have you asked someone, How did the conversation go? And they say, Oh my God, it was awful. They were not ready to have this conversation at all. Well, no shit, Sherlock, did you tell them it was coming? what I mean? It's like, oh my gosh all right, so step two, prepare. We've said it before, fail to plan and plan to fail. And here that can be totally true. This section requires us to think deeply about the other person. The context and the outcome we're looking for. And so first, assess the moment. What's happening right now for this person? What context do you have about their personal life? Their work life? What's happening in the broader landscape and in the world? This is important because it helps us see things from their perspective. and think about the mindset that they might be coming to us in. Second, gather your data. Get your info, your feedback. What do you need? What details are important to have? What do you want to bring to reference? Get it all together so you're fully prepared. Third, get clear on the messages that you want to land. What's the conversation about? What do you want to say? What do you want to get across? Get clear on these and say them out loud. Practice them. If they're tough to say, this will help you get used to saying and hearing them out loud. Fourth, anticipate the responses. Now this isn't about predicting what will happen in an I'll say this, then they'll say that, and then I'll respond with this kind of way. This is about playing out the different scenarios to understand what potential directions the conversation could go in. And if you had the inclination here, you could also role play it with someone else to bring in a different perspective. And then this leads me to the last thing to think about here in the prepare step. And that is, it's okay to ask for help. It's okay to not have all the answers and to want to talk the situation through with someone else. If you're in a work situation this could be with a peer, it could be with an HR support person, it could be your manager. In a personal situation this could be a close friend, your partner, a family member. Sometimes when we ask for help we get a different perspective and this can help us anticipate a different response.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Those steps are all super, super helpful. And just like reiterating that first one, like assess the moment. I think of it as like read the room. Where were you and what conversations were you about to have during really, you know, Pivotal global moments like the outbreak of the COVID pandemic or something. Maybe it's not the right time to have a conversation about something that feels a little bit smaller. So just assess that moment. Um, I think that's a super important one there.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Mmm, yes.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:So then the third step on the framework is during the conversation. And so the framework purposely takes you through that prep, the delivery and the reflection of the conversation. So step three is a bit of a frame for the conversation itself.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:So a frame within a frame.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Yes, exactly just what I know we all love, so yeah, there is a five step frame in this space that can help you move through the conversation to an outcome that works for both of you. And I think here is a good place to highlight too that as you do this more and more, these things will become second nature and it'll be less important to like stick to the frame a hundred percent of the time because you'll get, you'll get better at doing them. Okay. So during the conversation starts with a welcome. This is the opening, you know, it's Hi. Hello. Having some small talk, the quick chat before don't just launch right into the thing that you need to talk about. Then you move into what are we here to talk about and why. So this could sound something like, Thanks for making time to speak with me. I want to talk about X. Or I've been feeling insert some emotion about X and I want to explore why that is. or. Or I want to talk about X and I want to talk to you about it because of this reason. This lays the foundation for the conversation. It gets it out up front and nobody is left wondering, where is this going? Then you look back for context and forward for momentum. Looking back allows you to reference the thing that happened, the situation that you want to change, the feedback that you want to give, or provides context for the overall conversation coming in. And then looking forward allows you to start painting a picture of how you want things to change, what will be different, how it's going to feel, what it will give you, and what it might unlock for you and the other person. This then is followed by reaching agreement. And even though we've done all this to this point, this is usually where the main part of the conversation is. This is where you explore options together, talk it out, get through feelings, actions, emotions, put everything on the table. This is where you discuss what needs to change, why, and how it's going to happen. And you'll stay in this place until you reach an agreement that you're both happy with. Then finally, you'll move to the last step, which is the closeout. And this is where you agree on next steps, any action items, thank each other for the conversation. This is the wrap up, it's the bow, however messy that might be, doesn't need to be perfect, that you put on the conversation in order to move on. Vic, do you have an example of how this might come together for our listeners?
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Yeah, let's imagine that you're a people manager. So this could be a performance review. So you would start by saying, Hey Ryan, thanks for joining me. How are you feeling about today? Ryan, you would share how you're feeling. I would then say, so we're here to do your performance review for this quarter. I'd suggest that we take a look at what you've achieved, share the feedback that we've both gathered, talk about your wins and your learnings, and then take a look at what you want to carry forward into the next quarter. We'll then discuss your rating what would you like to add here? And Ryan will add his thoughts and his ideas. Talking about you in the third person now.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:All good.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Then we'd get into the conversation and I would ask you how you think you've done, what you've achieved, what you've learned, what successes you're celebrating. We'd share the feedback that we both have for the quarter and then we'd talk about the rating. And this I think is where the majority of our conversation takes place. Right, this is where we kind of really dig in. Then we'd follow this with, what would the next quarter look like, uh, what are you taking forward as you're learning? What are you working on in this upcoming quarter? And then we'd agree any actions and we'd capture next steps. The success of this conversation is directly related to how well You and I have prepped. So if we come to the conversation with no prep, we'll end up doing a surface level whistle stop tour that isn't informed by any data, reflection, or evidence. And essentially it'll be a waste of both our times.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Yeah, yeah, we've had those. Not you and I, but I'm sure we all have had those conversations. I really love, uh, you know, in that example that you've made space for the other person to bring their ideas and to bring their perspective. So it's not just, Hey, I'm talking at you. Um, and it's really about partnership and I can honestly say that. You know, having had actual performance conversations with you in the past, uh, I can share that they were never a surprise. That to me is a sign of a really good partnership with your manager. You're constantly staying aligned. You've got clear expectations. You understand what the outcomes are. It's worth noting here that that always made the performance conversation aspect all the more enjoyable and useful because we weren't stuck in having to like level set on a bunch of things. We both came prepared and could move right into what we wanted to talk about and look at the future. I also think this is a good place to reiterate that, you know, this is a five part series that we're doing on meaningful conversations. And sometimes some of the things that we've shared might seem a little contradictory, and this is perhaps one of those moments. So in episode four, we talked about being present and coming with an open heart and an open mind. And you might be wondering, How am I going to be present when I've got this framework that has all these steps and all these things that I have to know or to do as I plan. We would say that it's important to use the frames as a loose guide. Don't get so caught up necessarily that you're robotically going through the motions and having just kind of that surface level experience. You don't need to follow each step to the point that you can no longer be present in the conversation. It's all about balance. Have the frame in your head or on a piece of paper, but then also stay present as you navigate it. Okay, so we've done the first three steps. What's the last one of the framework?
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Okay. So step four is follow up. And this is where you follow through on action items and next steps. It's where you ask for help with anything that came up that you didn't have an answer for, or you need to do some more thinking on. It's a place for reflection. This is a key part of follow up. Take some time to think about the conversation. How did it go? What went well? What didn't? What did you learn? And at this point, you can also go and ask the other person how they think it went to gather more data. And I think that the reflection comes into its own when you pair it with action. So I love to do the take forward, leave behind exercise, and it's super simple. You look at the experience and you ask yourself, what did you learn that you want to take forward into the next conversation and the one after that and the one after that. And what are you leaving behind that no longer serves you? So that's the MC frame, set up, prepare during the conversation and follow up. So let's, let's do that thing now where we share some of our examples, Ryan, what have you seen or been a part of where this has worked really well, or conversely hasn't worked well?
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:sure. Uh, you know one experience, I guess a few experiences that come to mind around a common theme. I've had the pleasure of having the conversation with folks that are in my team about, you know, Pay and pay raises or changes to pay. Uh, and you know, I say I have the pleasure of doing that, which I mean, indicates already this was a good experience, but, um, you know, you might think, no, duh, of course, that's going to be a good conversation. You're giving somebody a raise. It's going to be positive no matter what. But honestly, I can tell you, these are probably some of the most horribly handled conversations in the workplace. It's often just a blip or a mention. So I'm like, Hey, you got a new raise. Congrats. Let's keep going. And while that may be comes across as good news, it misses a huge opportunity to build on the relationship that you have with this other person.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Oh God. You are 100% right? Yes. What a drop in of the ball.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Yeah. Yeah. And equally, if you don't have your homework done, you may be excited about this raise on behalf of that other person, but perhaps they're coming to the conversation feeling that it's a little inadequate because they don't think that the amount demonstrates the value that they truly bring, uh, or maybe you don't have clarity on what motivates them. And so maybe pay isn't such a big deal and it's like their lowest motivational factor. So you need to approach it in a different way. So for the conversations I've had in this space, it's been really helpful to prep and understand how to position the discussion, uh, and to know what the other person is feeling before going in and creating intention all around that moment that helped me ultimately learn more about them and connect even deeper. So having some of those deep questions that we've mentioned in our previous episode about asking great questions, really being present to see what their verbal and nonverbal reactions were, those were critical to how well these conversations went.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Mm.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Having a framework in these moments really amplifies the idea of being intentional, which honestly, this is one of those important moments that deserves that intention and thoughtfulness. So I'd highly recommend using this framework if you're prepping for a conversation like that one at work.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Yeah. And I think like, often we miss the mark in those conversations because we come to it with our own assumption. And we haven't given the thought and the preparation needed in that moment. And even if it's a great conversation, that person deserves to know what it is they're doing that's led to this and what you want to see more of. I love that example. That is such a good example.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:So what about you, Vic? What have you got to share in this space around meaningful conversations? Yeah, so I have an example here of where this has not gone well,
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:And so at some point in my career, I took over a team, so I got a, a new role and I was taking on a, a new team and the outgoing manager tells me that we have an underperformer. And the due to this. Underperformance. They want to do a formal handover meeting with the three of us. And I've met this team member before, and I did not have a huge amount of information about them. So no reference points to pull from. So we go into the conversation. This person has brought all the materials with me. to brief on their work. I've had an email before this meeting with a summary of each project and links to all the online folders, all the relevant materials. So we head into this meeting. The outgoing manager is late. So the team member and I were, we discussed the projects that they're working on. I get an update on the first one, ask a few questions. Everything seems to be in order. There's a few challenges, of course, but this team member's got a grip on them. They can talk knowledgably about them and around them. And, you know, we start to move on to the second project. And at this point, the outgoing manager joins us. He sits down. He doesn't greet us. Doesn't ask where we're up to in the conversation. He sits down and he basically says, okay, so we're here to talk about your poor performance because I want Vic to know exactly what she's getting into. And I want her to know about all the conversations that we've had about this to date. And so obviously I am caught off guard
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:yeah.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:as is this team member. Yeah. The outgoing manager then proceeded. To talk about a bunch of meetings that they'd had with this person over the last 12 months And where they told this team member that they weren't doing their job properly That they'd missed the mark and how unacceptable it was and I can visibly see That the team member is struggling with this You know They're saying I'm unsure when these conversations have taken place. Um, you know, the performance rating at my last review was satisfactory. You know, I'm, I can visibly see that they're struggling to, to kind of understand that asking for more details. The outgoing manager didn't have them. The team members pressing asking for specific dates when these meetings took place for documentation, for written communication. The outgoing manager has got none of this with him came into the meeting empty handed. And so I'm literally just like so uncomfortable both with the situation from a personal perspective, but also from this team member's perspective. And so I call a halt of the meeting. I'm like, Hey, you know, I think this might be a good time for us to pause this meeting. We clearly need a bit more information to continue. With a meaningful conversation here. I thank the team member for their time promise that we'd meet up the following data to discuss and kind of move, move the conversation forward. And when they left the room, you can imagine what I'm thinking here. And, you know, one of the things that people often say about me is that in these moments I can hold my counsel really well. Like I can, you know, there can be all sorts happening in the conversation and I can maintain a, you know, a level of on my face, people don't really know what I'm thinking. I have to tell you in this moment, everybody knew what I was thinking. Cause the minute that team, that team NIP member left the room, I turned to this manager and I was like, what the hell, like what just happened? Um, and he honestly thought there was nothing wrong with the conversation. And that for me was the hardest thing. He turned up. ambushed this employee and me and thought that it was completely okay. And so I asked if he had the documentation. He did. He's like, Oh yeah, I've got a whole file on it. Like, why didn't you bring it? Like, you know, and he was like, Oh, I just didn't think to bring it. They know we've had the conversations. I know we've had the conversations. And I was like, but I didn't, I don't have that information. There's so much wrong with this conversation. Yeah. But it actually taught me so much about how you prep for moments like these. That conversation with that employee could have gone completely differently and not only did it put them in a bad position, it started mine and their relationship, manager to employee, off on completely the wrong foot.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Yikes. Like what a mess. I mean, not even knowing all the details of that. Or what led to that point. I, and I have to imagine you learned a lot more after that. Uh, you know, it's just such a horrible way to work through this. Even if there were performance issues, cause part of me is wondering, okay, was it one of those? Like I have a problem with this, but it's not actually a problem. It's me. Um, but even if there were issues, this could have been a moment where, you know, yeah, you could have had that meaningful conversation between you and the other manager and then separately. With you and the teammate to really help everybody set themselves up for success What a cluster
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Oh, yeah. And there, there were some performance issues, but, you know, I think this was one of those classic moments where, when you get a new manager, your circumstances and the context changes and you can perform in a different way.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Yeah, for sure. And knowing you though, even if this was a bit of a rough start between you and this person, I have to imagine that you somehow turned this into something that was able to help you build even more trust with that person as you were taking that new team on.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Mm. Yeah. One, 100%. It's one of those moments in your career where you're like, let's not do that again. you know, just let's not, no.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Oh
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Um, one of the things I wanna mention here, because I think that, we've referenced this in the episode that people can often get caught up in the frame. know, robotically, oh, we're now in the welcome stage. You know, we've now moved to, the setting, the context we've now moved to, reaching agreements. I actually think, and I think you and I had this conversation. When we think about examples for these episodes and you were like, I came up with this example, but I, you know, I wanted to have something different. And I said to you that I actually think this is something you do really well. I think that when you prep for conversations, You are using this meaningful conversations framework to guide all of those conversations. I think about conversations you and I have had where you say, Oh, I'd really like to talk about X because of Y. And it sets it up really well I think about conversations that you have with Christopher where, you know, you both are prepping to come to that conversation in a way where you'll both get the most from it. Nobody's shocked, nobody's surprised, we're ready to have that conversation.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Thank you. Yeah, that's, uh, that's really nice to hear. And maybe it's just because of doing this, like, we've done this for so long, and it just kind of feels ingrained a little bit. But yeah, it's a, I like the point that it's, you know, it's really great to have clarity around it, because, yeah, you don't, you don't want to show up and have one of those conversations where you're immediately putting somebody on the defense because they're, they're shocked by what it is.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Yeah,
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Nice. Thank you. Okay, so let's wrap this one up. The MC frame then consists of four sections. We're going to go through those, so that you can approach every conversation ready to engage. Step one is the setup. Make sure you set a time, date, and location for the conversation. Also make sure the other person knows what you want to talk about and if there's anything that they can do to prepare. Step two, prepare. Get your info ready. Think about what you want to say. What do you want the outcome to be? Spend some time imagining the different scenarios that could happen. Ask for help. Practice. Seek a different perspective. Go in there ready. Step three, the conversation. This is the frame within the frame. Welcome them, explain the why, look back and forward, reach agreement, and then close it out. Remember, there's a balance here between being present and following a script.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:And finally, step four. Follow up. Complete the actions. Get help where you didn't know the answer or needed to think about it more. Reflect what went well, what could have gone better, and then work out what you're taking forward, and what you're leaving behind.
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:So that's us and our meaningful conversation framework. We hope you have found some value here and we'll share it with others to help them have more meaningful conversations and go back and listen to the other episodes in this series if you haven't already. We're Ryan and Vic, and thanks for joining us on Go Coach Yourself.
vic_1_08-30-2024_095401:Bye!
ryan_2_08-30-2024_155401:Take care, everyone.
